Grammar in judging: Yes or No? | Community Chat

[Jeremy King]

Hey all.

Expect some regular 'Community Chat' posts from me, as I aim to delve into the minds of the fantastic handlers who play here (either bravery or stupidity on my part, this). Also, feel free to post some yourself if there are any topics you're curious to discuss with the handlers here.

This particular topic asks the question: Should e-feds judge grammar in roleplays?

I'd love to hear reasons why people think that grammar should NOT be judged. I'd also love to hear reasons why people think that grammar SHOULD be judged.

Does judging grammar make it feel like school? Does it take away from the fun? Does it correctly award creative writing? Does it isolate those with poorer education?

What are your thoughts and/or feelings on this subject?

Let's discuss!

[Deleted]

Yes and no.

Everyone who writes promos don't come from smart and intelligent backgrounds. I dropped out at 15.. I hated school but I am smart enough to spell check.. 

But all in honesty.. its a hobby and for fun. We're not writing college papers.. But I think grammar is important but not life or death..

I never ran a fed so I can't really agree or disagree. 

[Deleted]

I agree and disagree.

If it wasn’t for the grammar police, I wouldn’t be the writer I am today. I love writing and would love to one day write a novel or a movie script. This hobby, and with people being hard on me and losing for the longest stretch of my life. It has really helped me with my grammar. Go back two years and try to read my writing compared to now. You will see a huge improvement, thanks to the grammar police, haha.

But then on the other side of the fence, especially being a fed head. I’m not picky about grammar as much, if I can read it and understand it, I’m good. Sometimes people may have a few bad grammar glitches in there roleplays, but they still have a better piece written than somebody with flawless writing.

Creativity and entertainment over grammar in my books.

[Deleted]

Yes for flow and structure. No for dialogue.

[Deleted]

I believe so, to a degree. It needs good enough grammar that it can be comprehended. Mistakes will happen, but when a piece isn't readable because of it then that piece should be penalised in my view.

[Deleted]

“A man's grammar, like Caesar's wife, should not only be pure, but above suspicion of impurity.”

This is a quote from one of my favorite authors, Edgar Allan Poe. I’ve written a few papers on him in college and I was always fascinated that many snooty critics think he was a total failure, while others think he was a genius. Sure, most of that comes from a creative standpoint, but either way, Edgar was a real writer’s writer, someone who didn’t make money from his craft and lived a rather poor and strenuous life. I actually work with Edgar’s great great great grandson (or something like that, but he is related). And no, he doesn’t write. He sells mortgages and fishes a lot.

I’m not out to throw jabs here, but the English degree in me sees grammar as the most important facet of writing, period. Not everyone is perfect, though, not even published authors that have multiple successes; people make mistakes and it is what it is. But the key to writing is to have a voice, an image, and the skill to project what is in your head to the reader who sits down to indulge on what you created in a very clear and direct fashion. Sometimes writing is convoluted and hard to decipher – not everyone will read a piece and share the same opinions, and that’s what makes writing so unique. It’s not math, people. There isn’t one answer.

But in e-Feds, it is relevant to the point that I made above. The integrity of work is simply built inside the flow and structure of writing and grammar simply makes this easier to attain because it makes you polished. Does it deserve to be the most important rubric? I’d have to disagree, because at the heart of e-Fedding is creative writing, which doesn’t follow a set of rules such as a college paper or an essay. People write differently and there is no one way. Therefore, it’s easy for me to forgive miniscule mistakes or even small details to get to the real meat of the dish, but I still find it important. It’s important because it can elevate someone from average to good, from good to great, and in some rare cases, from great to unbelievable.

[Deleted]

I'm with all of these peeps. It has to make sense. If it's chicken shit and you can't understand anything then it should be penalized. But if there's a few mistakes here or there, no biggie.

[Deleted]

Jun 23, 2016 4:32:26 GMT @dickdevereaux said:

I'm with all of these peeps. It has to make sense. If it's chicken shit and you can't understand anything then it should be penalized. But if there's a few mistakes here or there, no biggie.

I agree with you. Especially since I am Austrian, and English ain't my first language

[Jeremy King]

I do judge grammar and I'll tell you why I do it.

We are playing a game centred around competition and the judging of creative writing. The clue is in the name: creative writing.

Everyone judges the creativity of a piece; the use of imagination or original ideas to create a roleplay. The "creative" element in creative writing is always judged. Therefore, the "writing" element should be judged too, otherwise winners and losers in a creative writing game are not being fully or effectively judged.

I hear arguments against it all the time and I'll never, ever agree with it.

"It's supposed to be fun! Not school!" - Well, my response to that is simple. If you are playing a creative writing game, then it stands to reason you're passionate about writing. If you're passionate about writing, learning correct form is never not going to be fun. It's your passion! You should be obsessed with the use of correct form to enhance your creations. Furthermore, only westerners would associate learning with school. Wake up a little bit. If you don't learn something new every day, you're wasting said day. My writing came on leaps and bounds when I LEFT school and began e-fedding. I've learned more about correct form playing this game than I ever did in school, and that's because the feds I was in judged grammar. If you wanted to win, you HAD to get better. If you didn't want to do that, you just left and went to what was, at the time, considered "a jobber fed".

"I'm grading a creative writing piece, not a term paper!" - Well, I'm sorry amigo, but if you're only grading the creative aspect of the piece then you're NOT grading creative writing - you're just grading an idea. People who use this argument tend to miss the point completely and I'd refer them to my judging system for clarification. Grammar is worth 20 points, while creativity and the argument amount to 40 points - double the value of grammar. I'm not saying grammar is the be all and end all (as my own scoring confirms) but to ignore it altogether is absurd.

"People come from different educational backgrounds. I'm not gonna discriminate!" - You call it discriminate, I call it an opportunity to educate. If these people were deprived of a chance at a literary education, then what are they doing here? They obviously have a passion for writing, so let's share the wealth. Let's not allow their background to rob them of a chance to learn. I learned more playing this game than I did at school and at no point was it "not fun" or "unfair" on me. Saying "This person never got taught grammar in school, so let's remove it" is mind blowing. No, let's not remove it. Let's give them a life skill and show them learning doesn't start and stop in a government building.

I'm quite passionate about this topic, as you can probably tell

[Deleted]

Personally, I was always more lenient with people I knew weren't a primary English speaker. It felt unfair to just a native speaker with someone for whom it's a second, or third or whatever language.

[Jeremy King]

Jun 23, 2016 11:41:20 GMT @voidstar said:

Personally, I was always more lenient with people I knew weren't a primary English speaker. It felt unfair to just a native speaker with someone for whom it's a second, or third or whatever language.

I factor vocabulary in for that very reason. Let's use Michelle as an example. She's Austrian and German is her primary language. If I was her, I'd have made Lara Chambers Austrian or German, so that if there's broken English in the dialogue, as there sometimes is, it would be true to the character. I've told her this before too. Of course, instead, she has Lara from Liverpool - so I'm judging a scouser (don't we all? Lol, kidding)

EDIT: But also, it all comes back to learning. People who don't have English as their native language still choose to come and play in an English language fed, so it's an opportunity for them to learn. If I wanted to learn German, I'd go to a German fed and RELISH the chance to expand on my languages. If they aren't judging me on grammar, that would be hindered somewhat.

[Deleted]

But then that unfairly restricts her to an Austrian/German character. The whole idea of roleplaying is to portray something that, in the most part, isn't you in real life. Shelly isn't a Brit, but she wanted to portray one. Holding any grammatical flaws against her because of that would be harsh in my book. Especially given that her English is actually quite good. I personally value creativity above grammatical accuracy.

And frankly, do we actually want her to write like she's a scouser, anyway? Lol.

[Deleted]

One thing I’ve never understood about this hobby: If you’re not that great at grammar and want to be better, it would make sense to bug the shit out of someone who is. I’ve had a lot of people ask how they can get better and the answer is always the same: read someone who is better. Compare it to your own work. It doesn’t even have to be e-Fedding, either. Understand why and work on small details one at a time. For instance, if you know you make a certain mistake frequently, it would make more sense to be more punctual about that particular mistake until it gets filtered out of your style of writing completely. This way you’re not worrying about everything all at once.

[Deleted]

Jun 23, 2016 11:44:04 GMT Jeremy King said:

Jun 23, 2016 11:41:20 GMT @voidstar said:

Personally, I was always more lenient with people I knew weren't a primary English speaker. It felt unfair to just a native speaker with someone for whom it's a second, or third or whatever language.

I factor vocabulary in for that very reason. Let's use Michelle as an example. She's Austrian and German is her primary language. If I was her, I'd have made Lara Chambers Austrian or German, so that if there's broken English in the dialogue, as there sometimes is, it would be true to the character. I've told her this before too. Of course, instead, she has Lara from Liverpool - so I'm judging a scouser (don't we all? Lol, kidding)

EDIT: But also, it all comes back to learning. People who don't have English as their native language still choose to come and play in an English language fed, so it's an opportunity for them to learn. If I wanted to learn German, I'd go to a German fed and RELISH the chance to expand on my languages. If they aren't judging me on grammar, that would be hindered somewhat.

Well Davey you do realise I made Lara a long time ago. Second if the press conference I wrote she got German blood. And now I feel sad and go back to my Austrian corner

[Deleted]

Jun 23, 2016 12:38:11 GMT @theladyofchambers said:

Jun 23, 2016 11:44:04 GMT Jeremy King said:

I factor vocabulary in for that very reason. Let's use Michelle as an example. She's Austrian and German is her primary language. If I was her, I'd have made Lara Chambers Austrian or German, so that if there's broken English in the dialogue, as there sometimes is, it would be true to the character. I've told her this before too. Of course, instead, she has Lara from Liverpool - so I'm judging a scouser (don't we all? Lol, kidding)

EDIT: But also, it all comes back to learning. People who don't have English as their native language still choose to come and play in an English language fed, so it's an opportunity for them to learn. If I wanted to learn German, I'd go to a German fed and RELISH the chance to expand on my languages. If they aren't judging me on grammar, that would be hindered somewhat.

Well Davey you do realise I made Lara a long time ago. Second if the press conference I wrote she got German blood. And now I feel sad and go back to my Austrian corner

Trust me, your English is better than a large number of Brits can even manage.

And writing to stick to British regional accents would be extremely annoying. Ever heard a scouser talk? I'd never read your roleplays if you wrote like they talk. I'm English I have no idea what the hell they're saying. Lol.

[Deleted]

Aww you know I am joking. I know I am not the best in the world. But I must have some quality to remain for over fifteen years. So yeah #AustrianPower

[Jeremy King]

If anyone had read into my comment as me wanting Lara Chambers to sound like she's from Liverpool, then wires have been crossed. I look for British colloquialisms in British characters, the same way I look for regional colloquialisms of characters from any particular region. I'm not looking for Lara to start shouting "ey, ar kid - calm down, calm down, like".

Also, I second that Shell's grasp of English is superb. I'm the first person to stand up and say that I couldn't do what she does in German. My comments were only to give examples, not to single anyone out. It's okay to value creativity more than grammar, or vice versa - but that's not the question. The question is whether grammar should be judged at all. As I said earlier, there's more value in the creative content and the argument here than there is in the grammar.

Ultimately, it has to be judged, otherwise we're not participating in creative writing anymore.

[Deleted]

Jun 23, 2016 14:36:51 GMT Jeremy King said:

If anyone had read into my comment as me wanting Lara Chambers to sound like she's from Liverpool, then wires have been crossed. I look for British colloquialisms in British characters, the same way I look for regional colloquialisms of characters from any particular region. I'm not looking for Lara to start shouting "ey, ar kid - calm down, calm down, like".

Also, I second that Shell's grasp of English is superb. I'm the first person to stand up and say that I couldn't do what she does in German. My comments were only to give examples, not to single anyone out. It's okay to value creativity more than grammar, or vice versa - but that's not the question. The question is whether grammar should be judged at all. As I said earlier, there's more value in the creative content and the argument here than there is in the grammar.

Ultimately, it has to be judged, otherwise we're not participating in creative writing anymore.

I as a foreigner tell you, of course it should be judged. And I didn't feel insulted in the slightest.

[Deleted]

I love it! When I think back to when I first started, I was pretty terrible. Over time, I got slightly better but I can honestly say that IWA changed how I wrote completely. Having such an importance on it didn't dishearten me, it just made me want to get better. Thanks to this hobby I am now a much better writer than I ever would be and I can transfer that into my real life now, particularly to my kids when they will need my help. I'm grateful for grammar as a category and grateful to you, Davey, for being the grammar nazi you are!